Jocelyn Sheltraw 0:01
There’s also a lot we can learn from other states by looking at the data states have been illegal longer. So understanding what’s happening in Colorado understanding what’s happening in Washington, we see a lot of trends and one, two ones. One, two ones are very popular in Washington and Colorado. Don’t make as much market share here in California, but they have four years on this. So potentially, it will look like that here in California. Maybe not but probably because we see a lot of similar trends and

Announcer 0:37
you’re listening to To be blunt, B podcast for cannabis marketers, where your host Shayda Torabi and her guests are trailblazing the path to marketing educating and professionalizing cannabis light one up and listen up. Here’s your host Shayda Torabi.

Shayda Torabi 0:56
Hey y’all Welcome back to another episode of To be blunt. My name is Shayda Torabi, and I am your host for this conversation. I just wanted to start this episode by saying Holy shit, y’all We are at 17 episodes. This is super exciting for me. I really do hope that if this is your first episode, you will go back to other episodes and listen. And if this is you know, not your first episode, maybe you will take some time to subscribe to the show or leave us a five star review because those things really do matter and help put this show in front of more people so that we can help spread the cannabis marketing message, which is let’s just talk about it and be transparent so that we can all learn as this industry really starts to get its footing. So with that said and out of the way, I’m really truly excited to introduce Jocelyn shell tra as today’s guest, She’s the director of strategy at headset and headset is a real time it cannabis data analytics and intelligence for the cannabis industry through cannabis brands and businesses. As well as just think this is a really cool key part. They provide data reports and analyses on industry trends. So those reports are free, you can go to their website and download them. And we’re gonna dive into some of them today in this episode. So definitely listen all the way through to the end. But just know that, you know, this is a new industry, and we are trying to learn as much as possible about it. And I think headset is a really great business in the space to help us understand just that. So let’s dive in. Let’s welcome Jocelyn and get this conversation kicked off.

Jocelyn Sheltraw 2:27
So I’m a little over two years into the cannabis industry. And I spent my career working in AD tech, I started working in local beer, the iPhone came out. And so I started working with app developers and I will see they’re building their apps are helping monetize those apps or do the advertising for them. So I worked throughout the ad tech supply chain. And I joined the cannabis industry two and a half years ago being that I’m a longtime cannabis enthusiast. And let’s just say I’m based in Oakland, California. And I started in California year one as we as we went into legalization, adult use legalization, and I’ve been eyeing the industry, I wanted to be a part of another high growth emerging industry like I had been in mobile. And so I had, you know, been eyeing headset in particular for a couple years, probably about a year and a half before before joining the company, but certainly looking at the cannabis industry and kind of keeping an eye on what was going on. And I’ll tell more more of that story in a second. But I’ll start with kind of what I do in my day today, because I think that’s probably most applicable right now. And this is part of the conversation. So I run our west coast operations and strategy for headset and simply put what I’m doing is really meeting with different parts of the supply chain. I’m mostly working with retailers with brands with investors. And because what we’re doing is so new cannabis data analytics, this this kind of software, it’s really new for the industry as a whole. I’m mostly spending my days evangelizing for technology evangelizing for data explaining our story at headset, how we got into the industry, why we’re here and how we’re helping these different parts of the supply chain, understand what’s going on within the industry, whether it’s through our market data, or whether it’s better understanding their own data. And I’m really educating people on kind of what we’re finding or how to make use of our software and apply it to their businesses. But yeah, two plus years into the industry and having the time of my life, it has been very challenging. I’m used to a lot of these challenges coming from the tech world and, you know, being part of a wild west of a new industry. But this is definitely far beyond my experience of tech because there are so many more nuances to this industry, from the legal side, and I’ve experienced before.

Shayda Torabi 4:51
Yeah, that’s right. There’s a lot of nuances to this industry. And I think you painted a very accurate picture that anybody listening is like, Huh, yep, buckle up. This is the ride. But I do think it’s always fun to hear from different geographies, which kind of you and I were addressing a little bit before we started recording, but just for the listeners to understand to where you’re based is in California, California is legal for adult use and for medicinal use compared to some of the other states that are still you know, striving for medicinal, which is me in Texas, I’m like, please give us something to work with. Luckily, we have CBD. So we’re cracking the door open. But so let’s dive into headset headset you’re talking about, you know, data, helping consumers understand or not consumers while you’re helping consumers understand the data, but you’re also helping these brands and businesses understand the consumers through the data. So help me understand help us understand what headset does, and you know, take it from there.

Jocelyn Sheltraw 5:41
Yes, so well, we are a b2b company. But I will also say this so I, you know, I share a lot about what what I’m learning what we’re learning headset on LinkedIn, and Instagram and all the channels, it’s very interesting to see who responds because it is a lot of just general consumers who are interested in cannabis and find all of this data that we’re analyzing very interesting. But we are a b2b company. So what headset does for Canvas data and analytics company, but we service the industry through a couple different pieces of software. And we really came about we were started by the founders of leafly, over five years ago. And I always like to mention our founding story because sigh Brian and Scott, our founders, you know, have still currently with us, they’re the three original founders of leafly. They really started that out of Orange County, which I’m also an orange county native. The way that things started here at headset was through first building out this retail software. So this is the first platform the first piece of our ecosystem is for the dispensary. So right now dispensary is they have to have a point of sale system, right? So there’s 50 plus different point of sale systems throughout the US and Canada. And so what headset does is we take all that point of sale data, and we provide even more analytics than the retailer would get just from the point of sale system. So we’re really analyzing all that point of sale data and then turning it into these actionable reports for the retailer to better manage their inventory to understand who their customers are, what products they like to purchase, so that the dispensary can apply all of these learnings to their inventory strategies into their marketing strategies. The reason I like to tell the story about our founders coming from leafly is because for me as a longtime cannabis enthusiasts leafly was really the first way that you could understand what a strainer hi was like, but the creative visualizations and the UI or the UX that they built out really makes the difference for us as a consumer and being able to ingest this information which could seem quite complex understanding the stream database, right, we’ve applied that same philosophy into data and analytics, because data is only good if you could read it and make sense of it. So we found that because the industry is this is also new, being able to visualize it really makes a big difference for these retailers and being able to make use of the data. So that’s the first piece of our ecosystem. First, we’re servicing the dispensary helping them understand what’s happening within their own store, but also giving them this visibility into what’s happening in the state or the market level trends. So the second piece of our ecosystem has four brands. And this is a platform that we call bridge. And what this does is it allows the retailer that’s using a retail software to be able to share all of the skew level sell through rates directly with their brands. And that helps the brands collaborate on inventory levels, essentially making sure that there’s no out of stock events with the store, which is really important right now, because especially in a market like California, we’re experiencing a lot of supply shortages. So being able to collaborate with your vendors in real time is really important. And prior to this, there really wasn’t any the way that it was run before was a brand would call the dispenser and say how much inventory Do you have, and they keep track of this via pen and paper or Excel. So we’re really helping kind of automate that process for the retailers and the brands to collaborate. And then the third piece of our ecosystem is our insights platform. So this is the real time market data. So the way this works is that because we’re directly connected to the point of sale systems via an API connection. So we’re plugged in with 24 different point of sale systems, what we then do is we take all that aggregated point of sale data. And in real time we’re analyzing all that data, we normalize it so we get rid of any privacy information. And then we run a bunch of different methodologies. So comparing it to city and state tax data, making sure that our sample size has an even amount of rural or suburban shops, so that we can then aggregate that data out to make sure it’s reflective of the entire market, because we obviously aren’t connected into all of the retailers. So we need to make sure that it’s a solid sample of data reflective of the entire market. And then we populate that into a platform called insights. And that’s where any producer in the industry can log in, and really start understanding what is selling in real time. So it’s incredibly powerful information. And you know, we’re really like the leading cannabis company that’s doing this in real time. So it’s been really neat to be a part of that journey within the cannabis industry and helping all these other states really understand what’s going on in their market.

Shayda Torabi 10:12
Yeah, I think it’s such a familiar function for so many other industries. But when you look at it through the cannabis lens, it’s not something that you see as very accessible. And so I love that you highlight, you know, the different facets that headset does, because I do think you do have a lot of consumers who are wanting to understand the market, but you also have the market moving really rapidly. And so from a business perspective, you’re trying to just like you said, you want to make sure that if you’re a brand, your products can be sold on someone’s shelves, and you want to be able to manage inventory. If you’re the dispensary. You want to know what you’re selling and who and what’s popular. But then again, as a consumer, it’s, you know, the fascinating stuff for me are, you know, what are the new trends? What are the new things that people are purchasing? What are the new categories? And so one thing that I kind of wanted to pick your brain about, because I see this through a lot of your reports is this conversation around cannabis 1.0 versus cannabis 2.0. And sort of you can share some more about what that differentiation is?

Jocelyn Sheltraw 11:07
Yeah, well, I mean, I’ll kind of relate that back to a bit of my experience and technology, because we really did see a lot of the same shift in this new high growth quickly emerging industry, that really, there was a lot of investment that came into this space, because everyone’s so excited about it and wants to be a part of it. But we didn’t really know what it was yet, or how big the opportunity could be because it’s also new. So cannabis 1.0, in my opinion, is really about just that it’s really about the emergence of a new market, being able to have legal cannabis. And then new investment coming in the industry really trying to figure out what is the technology that’s needed? How does the supply chain work? What are the forms that are available, so it’s really the beginning of a new legalization within a market and all of the new players that come in and facilitate the supply chain to enable that technology partners included? And now we’re sort of entering into this new era where our investments kind of dried up for the last year where I think a lot of the community is really realizing that there’s no way we could anticipate the various challenges and I’ll just speak to California in terms of to point out, but California, for example, has had a really difficult past 12 months, 18 months, we face three crisis’s. You know, as an industry, we had the vape crisis last summer, you know, now we’re in COVID. And now we’re dealing with fires, which is going to impact the supply chain. So there’s all these things that are happening here, which have been naturally caused either the investment community to kind of take a step back, because a lot of the projections that were anticipated from a sales side maybe weren’t, they’re not California, we had our biggest sales month ever in July with almost 350 million in sales. So the sales are happening in the consumer growth is all happening. But it what I think is challenging us that there’s this vast landscape of brands that didn’t necessarily as necessary, didn’t really think through all of the things that would happen in this industry, because we just didn’t know. So now it’s just we’re growing up, it’s starting to mature. And so that’s kind of the 2.0 that I’m that I’m referring to is more about maturation that has now seeing investment will start coming back in, I think people are growing up a little bit more, we’re starting to ask different questions, investors are certainly starting to have different standards for the companies that they’re investing in. So we’re starting to see any companies or founders that didn’t really have a solid business plan, there’s kind of starting to weed out a little bit. So you know, the the companies that that have a solid strategy, I think we’ll be fine and be able to kind of make it through this time.

Shayda Torabi 13:48
Just being on that topic of a crisis, obviously COVID being a major thing that we’re still existing in. So it’s obviously not going away. I think there was a brief period where even you know, respectively speaking as a brand owner in this space, it’s like, oh, we’re you know, on shelter in place, temporarily, things will go back, you know, I operate a retail dispensary, essentially, in Texas, and so wanting to connect to my consumers keep products available to them. You’re talking about supply chain, you’re talking about just even consumers being able to come in and shop at your store. Obviously, with COVID, you saw this trend of everybody going more online, for better or worse. I don’t know if the industry was totally prepared for that. But I think it’s something that we had to embrace regardless. And so where I think y’all have probably a really interesting position to from a data perspective is what are the numbers look like when COVID I mean, you mentioned California had record highs in July and so was that related to COVID? Is it because it was marked as an essential business in states like California? Is it because you think more people are being introduced to cannabis under these circumstances like you know, kind of what does the data say about some of these things?

Jocelyn Sheltraw 15:00
Yeah, so we were closely monitoring this. I mean, all throughout COVID, we had, we had to change a lot of our methodologies to be able to kind of understand how quickly these trends were changing. Because prior to COVID, as an industry, we had started to see really typical trends that we would see in other consumer packaged goods industries. So there was a lot of predictability to our supply chain, we saw seasonality trends, we would see certain products spike at certain times of the year. So this became really predictable, it really helped the supply chain. But then as soon as COVID hit all of predictability kind of became like charts used to look like this every month. And it used to be very now it’s it doesn’t look like that anymore. So what we did see is that right when shelter in place orders for announced we did see that spike in sales, which was essentially equivalent of what we would see an increase on 420. So people were rushing out thinking, you know, they didn’t know how long shops were going to be open if they would be able to have access. So we didn’t see that that rush and then that spike in sales, which then a few days later, kind of evened out, and sales, you know, still remained consistent, still continuing to grow. I think what’s happening is that being deemed essential, we hear a lot of you know, different leaders or different markets talk about this, but it really I think has made an impact on the cannabis industry. Because it’s at the forefront of our conversation. It’s in the media. Right now it’s being discussed in politics. So it’s D stigmatizing, I think at faster rates than pre COVID. And my personal opinion, so we’re starting to see new consumers come into the market, but sales are continuing to grow. So for for 20. For example, this year was going to be a massive year for for 20. Because it was for 2020. You know, so we were anticipating much higher growth than we’ve seen in years prior. And what we ended up seeing was that sales were not happening. It wasn’t the peak on 420. But they were just more spread out throughout the week. We also saw interesting things like prior to COVID most sales and dispensary’s in the states that are reporting on to the markets that were reporting on, which is five US states three Canadian provinces. So all the data actually that I’m going to be referring to is adult use sales data in California, Colorado, Washington, Nevada, and Oregon, which is turned on yesterday, as well as three Canadian provinces. So BC, Alberta and Ontario. And so in all of those markets, what we saw is that from Friday to Sunday, that was generally when 48% of cannabis sales were happening in those two days. Now, what’s happened is that sales are shifted a little bit more evenly throughout the week, we’ve seen increases in Mondays and Tuesdays, we’re seeing people shop earlier in the day. And then we’re seeing delivery also, you know, expand quite a bit, we did run a small sample of retailers here in California to see what delivery has been like through COVID. And we saw that delivery made up anywhere from five to 20% of a store sales and the contingency there was really odd where the retailer was located. So if it was in a rural part of California, less delivery was happening there versus where if it was in a more suburban area, we tend to see higher rates of delivery in those in those areas,

Shayda Torabi 18:13
out of all the stuff that you’re collecting all the state all these, you know, little points. I mean, you talked about you know, predictability. And so I think that there are some trends that even I could make, you know, assumptions based on would be popular because of even personal consumption, what I would want to consume when I go shop at a legal dispensary or you know, adult use product, what maybe is because of COVID or maybe just as like you highlighted cannabis is getting pushed more into mainstream, I think you do have a new, I’m sure demographics looks different than maybe you were tracking or anticipating. But I’m curious what maybe the most surprising trend is that you’ve uncovered lately.

Jocelyn Sheltraw 18:53
Yeah. So the most surprising trend to me is looking at Genesee and what their purchasing habits are, because these are people who are born 1997 and after. So these are the people that are aging into the market right now. So every day we’re getting more new, you know, Gen fears. What’s been really interesting what I was looking at some data over the last 30 days, we’ve never seen any demographic group to which flour wasn’t the largest percentage of sales, and Gen Z women vape has just surpassed flour. So for Gen Z women vape sales make up I believe it’s like 31.7% of sales and flower was at 31.4. So it’s a small number at this point. But it’s been surpassed which we’ve never seen that in any demographic group, at least from the data that we’re collecting. where that was the case flour is always the predominant category. So this is very interesting to keep an eye on because this is the new consumers that are coming in. So I think it’s really important for retailers and brands to be looking at that and understanding those purchasing patterns. We do see some differences you know, certainly between men and women in what products are likes to consume, but it’s actually not as it’s very, it’s very product focused. So for example, concentrates tend to lean tend to skew more towards men. Any non unhelpful. So a tincture or sublingual, topical, those tend to lean more towards women than men. So we see some of those nuances. Men are still the predominant purchaser, I think they make up 67% of sales and around that point in most most markets, but really interesting to keep an eye on, on what that demographic group is doing.

Shayda Torabi 20:30
Yeah, I think that’s a fascinating point to kind of tease out a little bit more, because you’re talking about, obviously, the date prices hit California really hard. Last year, when it kind of got unraveled. And even in Texas and beyond, you know, I still hear repercussions. People are very cautious when it comes to vaping. Again, kind of caveat in the market that I currently work in and operate in is CBD only, we’re dealing Fun fact for you, I’m sure my listeners are semi aware of this, Texas is dealing with smokeable ban right now. And so it’s a very hard conversation on so many levels. One we know smoking in general, whether you are vaping, or consuming flour is most bioavailable in your body, it’s the fastest acting way to experience cannabis. But then you have markets like Texas that are essentially saying, Well, you can’t sell this product. So you kinda have to market around it, you have to sell it as what it is not. And so I think it’s confusing then to go and have to say this is bud but you can’t smoke it, you can bake with it, do whatever you want, when I sell it to you, I don’t care. And so then you have these different public things like the crisis and so you have different generations, the crisis, different markets, and it’s still fascinating to me that you have the data pointing and saying vaping is really where I think this new generation is skewing towards, despite I think what the media is trying to, you know, frame essentially around it. But I guess the data speaks louder than what’s actually happening. So I’m sure brands in California are really happy to see you’re probably here, we’ll be happy to hear that that’s the case. Because I know that that’s a component when you’re a brand and you’re trying to market your business. And you and I know the vape crisis was really around these aftermarket vapes. It was not most of the products that are actually being sold legally through the process of what it is to have a product in a dispensary. So it’s hard when people are afraid from a consumer perspective to purchase a product that they’ve heard has these negative connotations, but it’s like no, no, no, you can still buy legal products. Those are still convenient, this is still a viable way to consume cannabis is just here’s all this noise that’s happening out in the market. But again, it sounds like the new generation is going to just completely shift that but I think micro dosing is another area that I don’t know if you see in the trends are in the data as much of smaller dosages when it comes to edibles. But that’s one that I’ve observed too. I think with this new cannabis consumer, they’re a little bit more cautious. They would prefer to have something that they eat versus smoke, and then I’m seeing really crazy ratios. And I’m like, Who are these consumers, but they’re out there and they’re coming to these shops and purchasing these products?

Jocelyn Sheltraw 23:24
Yeah, there’s a lot of testing when it comes to different ratio sizes to see what consumers are interested in California in particular has a vast amount of different ratio sizes and CBD to THC. Whereas other states like Washington are much less variety in the ratio sizes. But yeah, no, I mean from from a data perspective, and actually during COVID. We’ve seen in California, in particular the growth in edibles, so we thought we did see declines in pre rolls. And then instead of purchasing pre rolls, it looks like those consumers shifted over and purchasing edibles instead. So I think, actually, I don’t know if I want to quote those. But I believe over the last 365 days in California, our edible sales were about 19% of the overall market. So it’s a pretty pretty big piece of our market share here and has been growing since COVID. And the declines in payrolls, the category as a whole has seen declines, but it’s not all producers. And I think this is one of the really interesting things about really looking at data and breaking it apart. So there’s some producers, the reasons that probably that we saw pre rolls declines is not just from a health concern and a perspective of consuming and inhalable. It’s also there’s a social component to when you consume a pre roll, you’re generally not consuming a one gram pre roll on your own. So what we have seen is that there have some producers and I’ll use sublime Canada, which is a producer here a manufacturer here in Oakland, they ended up coming out with a little dog walker, so an individual pre roll which is much smaller in size and that from over a one month period. They have 38% growth in that New Market launch because most likely, cuz you know, it’s easier for someone to just consume that tiny little pre roll as opposed to sharing. So there are some of those interesting, interesting trends and how producers then kind of adapt to what’s going on. And just going back really quickly to your other example, about the big crisis, and what we did see there, as everything peaked, we started seeing all the media come out, all the stories come out in early August end of July is when everything started being reported. But as we started uncovering more in the industry, we could start to see that this was coming from elicit shops, I don’t know of any deaths that occurred in California that worked from a legal shop. However, I will say I certainly know cases in which there has been a legal product that has made it into legal shops less happening today, because we are much more regulated. But you know, year and a half, two years ago, it certainly was happening. So wouldn’t be surprised. But I think this is where consumer education and our media plays a great role in this D stigmatization, because when you start to understand this is a new industry, we are just coming up with testing and regulation and processing as we go. So we don’t know what we don’t know yet. But we do need some source of truth to be able to say, Okay, this bait crisis hit, we did see sales decline immediately. But then just you know, a few short weeks later, they were going up again, because the story has started to change. And we had started to become aware that this was happening in the list of shops. So we actually started to see consumers from the that were purchasing a single product move into fully equal sides of the market. So really interesting to kind of watch and see how those trends play out in real time through the data a

Shayda Torabi 26:45
quick break to say thank you to restart CBD for sponsoring this podcast, restart CBD is a brand my sisters and I founded in our hometown in Austin, Texas, we operate a retail location as well as an e commerce store. And you can browse our wide range of CBD products at restart CBD calm. Again, thank you to restart for allowing me the time and resources to put on to be blunt, I hope you’ll check them out for your CBD needs. Let’s go back to the episode. I want to go back to the producer narrative, I’m assuming they’re one of your clients. Mm hmm. Yeah. And so I’m just gonna, I’m going to paint a picture, we can fill in some of the gaps I can imagine, like you were talking about being able to pivot is such a, such a necessary like behavior when you’re in this industry. And so the data I think helps brands pivot more strategically, more efficiently, you’re doing it less, you know, by the seat of your pants, even though this industry is always by the seat of your pants, does it address like when media happens, like things can shift overnight and kind of shift parts of the industry. But kind of going back to I imagine having access to data allows these brands to shift more quickly. And as such, I think it allows them the opportunity to ride that wave, whether it’s for better or worse. And so I think obviously COVID happening, it’s not pleasant, but like you address, kind of you’re looking into the psychology of perhaps why someone might be purchasing a pre roll, oh, it’s more communal, you’re doing it with your peers you’re doing with your friends. And now you have this crisis where you are being told to not hang out in communities to not be in groups. If I’m a pre roll brand, or I’m making products that are pre rolls, like shit, that fucking sucks. You know, like, I didn’t plan this to happen. Nobody ever plans about things to happen. But you know, you have a vision for your product and how it’s going to be received in market. And I can imagine some brands who just don’t have that data don’t have that awareness to even understand, hey, maybe why is this happening? Hey, how could we pivot? And so being able to adjust and create a smaller? Would you call it a dog walker, a dog walker joint I love that name. I’ve heard many different nicknames for those like smaller joints. But I think that’s a smart observation for this brand to have taken from the data that you provided to them. of, hey, this happened, how do we make sense of it? And what can we do to kind of turn this negative thing into a positive and so I don’t know if there’s any other cool stories like that, where you’ve seen brands really be able to take the data and do something positive to help their business survive?

Jocelyn Sheltraw 29:28
Oh, completely. I mean, using the example the ratio example. So there’s a large edible producer here in California that is leading in gummies category. And so they were looking at, you know, how do we find some whitespace and ratio sizes that people are looking for so they ended up coming out with a nine to one mango gummy because there’d been some white space in the market for that. And now that’s the leading gummy in that ratio size. There’s also a lot we can learn from other states by looking at the data states have been illegal longer. So understanding what’s happening in Colorado, understanding What’s happening in Washington, we see a lot of trends. And one, two ones, one, two ones are very popular in Washington and Colorado, don’t make as much market share here in California, but they have four years on this. So potentially, it will look like that here in California, maybe not, but probably because we see a lot of similar trends within the states. And that would be another example of just really looking at it and kind of seeing, okay, there’s some some space that could exist here. And they built a product and adjusted really quickly. I think producers are really used to that in the cannabis industry, because new laws are constantly coming out. So in July of 2018, we had a new repackaging law that went into effect here in California. So I think producers had only had a couple of weeks before, they had to update all of their packaging to be compliant of these new new logos on there. So producers had to fire sell all of that product to get it off the shelves and then build new packaging. So producers here are really used to these regulations changing and then having to adapt quickly. And I think that’s also part of this 2.0 cannabis, you know, that we’re leading into is really being able to recognize that and being able to make these adjustments very quickly, because we have to survive.

Shayda Torabi 31:17
Yeah, I think that’s the key we have to so you have to be smart about the tools that you’re using. And so I know obviously, not everybody who’s listening can probably take advantage of headset just by you know the nature of the industry that you service, it doesn’t sound like it affects CBD brands just quite yet. But I do love just being a consumer who personally like I hope that people who are listening can understand whether you can actually take advantage of the platform to do data and analysis on your own brand and products. Y’all put out a lot of reports, I was going through your website, there’s a lot of data that you’re sharing back out into the public and like you said, which is, you know, so close to my heart, because I really believe we can learn a lot from people who have come before us even though the industry is still very immature. It’s what is I think the latest report you had is trends in Canada. So you know, it’s fascinating for me, because I think Canada, while it’s legal does have some different nuances to it. And so being able to observe it both from a, oh, what might there be similarities, but also where might there be differences. And I think to further reinforce the point to if we all made the same product, then I think that that would be saturated, right. And so when you’re looking at cannabis, obviously flower pre rolls, vape edibles, there are certain categories, I mean, I’ve traveled to Washington just to kind of pick on them for a little bit. And I saw some pretty interesting edibles, their whole serving size was a bag of chips. And the whole bag was you know, each little piece of the chip was, you know, a small micro dose for the whole bag was, let’s say, a serving of 20 milligrams versus you don’t really see those types of products in California. So there’s regulation and laws that I think are dictating how and what people can actually put in their products or how they package them. But I think that there is this creative space. And I think being able to capture data and leverage the data to bring back into your marketing initiatives and activities, not only just to keep the business running, right, it’s like, oh, what do we saw this month? What should we reorder? But also, where is this white space? Where is this creative space? What are some of these different things that the data is tracking that we can highlight and be creative and bring to market? And so yeah, I think that’s where I find the most fascination is just paying attention to some of these little, you know, things that are happening kind of all over the world, really? And then how do you make sense of it for your own market? How do you filter it down for your own brand? What makes sense for your brand?

Jocelyn Sheltraw 33:43
Yeah, I mean, the cannabis industry is just a vast array of different types of products. And I mean, to put it into perspective, so I think that the average retail on Washington carries anywhere between 1.5 and 5000 different products skews in their store. But to put that into context, on average, Trader Joe’s has around 4000 products skews. So it’s so many different products. And oftentimes, I think what happens is using your your chip example, people will want to build a product that they think they’re going to want to consume, and it’s off of gut decision. And they think let’s just try it. There’s so many different products out there. But I think what’s going to happen is we’re going to start to see people kind of pick and choose what products are going to make sense for whatever it is that they’re trying to treat or have that experience with. And the thing with cannabis is there’s the recreational side, and there’s the medical side, whether you’re purchasing it from a recreational shop or not, you have patients and then you have consumers. And so it’s going to be very interesting to see what are the formats that are resonating with a patient versus someone who’s using cannabis in a recreational you know, capacity. And right now, I think that a lot of people we just don’t know. So it’s just like trying all these different things and kind of seeing what sticks and that’s where It’s like, yeah, look at the data, see kind of what’s happening, but we don’t know what’s gonna maybe that maybe your product will be super nation work for that specific segment that you’re trying to target. But use whatever information you can and to your episode, glad that you looked at the website, we do produce so many free I’m just super passionate about letting people know like, because actually a lot of the data that I’m speaking to, you can go get access to this and headset for free through our post platform. So it’s just kind of knowing that it’s available and out there and just spending time to really go through it and try to understand what’s happening to the best degree that you can. But it’s hard because everything is changing so quickly. And reg, between regulations and compliance and let alone keeping track of what’s happening from that sales and data perspective.

Shayda Torabi 35:49
It’s important, we need this information. And so it is great that there are resources and companies that have really dedicated resources to this, I actually didn’t pick up and no, that headset was founded by leafly. And so I do think that’s a really interesting piece to share in your journey as a brand in the space. But yeah, somebody who very much grew up reading leafly appreciating the different strain visualizations that they have put together, they’ve obviously been a resource for that consumer segment to get more familiar with the plant. And now it’s really it sounds like headset has come in to build on that kind of intention that I think leafly has a just better understanding the market and providing that insight back into the industry, whether it is a consumer who’s reading a report, or it’s a brand who’s trying to understand what’s happening in their dispensary, or how their product is doing. And so kind of on that vein, I am curious, you know, what the data says? Are there brands that you’re showing? are top brands that are surprising to you? Or do they match up? You know, I don’t want to brands is in California, Juana is kind of positioned as the leading edible company is that what the data says to you knows the data also stand behind. These are the brands. So visually, the brand looks and appears to be the leader, but then does the actual data back it up?

Jocelyn Sheltraw 37:14
Well, many brands are saying they’re the leader. So the actual we know who the actual leaders are, because we’re analyzing all of it in real time and all skew level data. So you could actually go on our website and pull the top 10 we list we have this page called the best sellers page. And so you can go see in every category Who are those top product skews in the market today. One is not in that top 10 and the overall in California, but I think they are up there. But I don’t know off the top my head in their particular, you’d have to look at their particular segment and category and then identify who within Gumby. So it’s very hard to say in California, our top 10 brands right now are making up 27% of our overall sales. And those brands are not surprising to me because it’s going to be brands like steezy, rock garden, wild has really come up Pacific stone, I think it is Kiva. So these are all really big brands here in California. But we could certainly analyze that further by any category. And then and then segment, you know, but those are just the overall sales for all sales, they have many product skews within the portfolio’s of those companies that I just mentioned.

Shayda Torabi 38:26
I think that’s an interesting thing to highlight, too, just to create further differentiation, because cannabis is not federally legal. Most brands, even if you reach national acclaim, you can set up manufacturing in different states, which is my understanding of how one has been because they’re a Colorado brand. But they’re obviously also sold in California. But it sounds like California, from the data really likes to support California brands. And I think that you have that ecosystem being built have originally kind of had the industry’s not been designed, but because we don’t have federal legalization, you have these isolations that are happening. And so, of course, people are exposed to the brands that are in their community, they’re exposed to the brands who are advertising in their space, they’re exposed to the brands who are, you know, employing their friends or setting up shop across town or you know, reviving a certain part of maybe a city because it’s now becoming popular for them to be growing or producing or manufacturing. And so I think that was just the point that I wanted to kind of make to I don’t know, if you want to add to it, but around loyalty and trends with brands, I think is also isolated perhaps by state even if a brand has surpassed kind of the state boundaries, just because I think that you have so much saturation of state ecosystem brands.

Jocelyn Sheltraw 39:39
Definitely well, and we have very limited options for advertising. So there’s very limited ways that a consumer is going to know that this is oftentimes they wouldn’t I think people just assume if it’s a brand that’s popular in California just exist potentially in another state and not really understanding that no, we have very different laws by state we don’t have interstate trading. So there’s a lot of these things that you just wouldn’t understand. So it very much is about who is the top brands within your state because that’s really, you know, there’s only so many brands that are in multiple markets at this point. And I feel like if you were to ask someone who is the top brand in California, you’re going to get, if you have 20 people, you’re going to get 20 different responses most likely there, we really don’t have a lot of brand loyalty yet. And and the brand loyalty that does exist, I’m finding, it’s more in some of these niche brands that almost have made it from the prop to 15 days, the medical days, and that they had a connection because of perhaps a medical use, but it’s really been conducted into someone. So there’s a lot of brand loyalty in that capacity. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of brand loyalty that exists today, because there’s several issues with that, because one, the supply chain is really unstable. So oftentimes, you won’t see the same brand in many different shops that you go to. So it’s really hard to have any loyalty when you know, these brands don’t know if they’re going to be able to have enough inventory to be in all of these stores. And consumers are also very price conscious. So they definitely purchase on price. So $1 differential could make a big difference. Again, the reason why I keep track of the pricing trends, discounting trends, so well. Yeah, I’m very curious to kind of see what happens with brand loyalty. And if it does start to exist, there obviously, is brand loyalty if we have 10, top 10 brands in California making up 27% of our market share. To some degree there is probably that loyalty, but I don’t think we know not yet.

Shayda Torabi 41:32
No. And that’s a really fair point, too. I think you have consumers who probably just assume they don’t care. They don’t know who the brand is, there is no loyalty, but it’s the convenience. It’s is this sold at the dispensary that’s closest to me, and what is the price point. And so I do think that you have those that are competing for consumers attention and and that is probably showing in the data to where there’s not so much consistency yet because it’s so unpredictable because it’s new, and then you have all these different crises happening, like the supply chain, I think is a really fair one to also call out that I don’t think most people realize, you know, it’s something that I just assumed, again, being a consumer, especially I go to Colorado a lot, that’s probably where I have the most familiarity when it comes to adult use, you know, you find a particular brand of whatever you like. And I remember going to a few different dispensaries and they didn’t all consistently have it, or they did not consistently have the particular product I was looking for and just getting so frustrated, like, Oh, isn’t this like, you know, target? Don’t you have the same products at every target? And why are the products not the same and really realizing it’s a fraction of the supply chain, it’s surprising its demographic, it’s all these things that are laying into why a particular product might be sold or not sold at a particular location. And, again, I just think you have consumers who aren’t privy to that. And then you have businesses who are in the middle of it. And so I think there’s a sexy side of what y’all do, which is giving that insight peeking behind the curtain into what are the actual trends. But then there’s the Okay, I just need to run business, I just need to see what I need to reorder, I need to know what’s performing well and what’s not, and kind of trim the fat from that perspective. And I think that those are really great positions to exist in the industry right now. Because it’s just empowering the end user, whoever the end user is. And I think more power, more education, more resources, the better. And so I hope people are excited to and curious, not just excited, because like the data is exciting, but curious to dig in and see how it can actually be applicable into their business and industry. And so I know we plug some of the reports, but I definitely will make sure to link so people can can go browse through them and get connected to you and see what you guys are doing. And if they’re in a legal state take advantage of perhaps, you know, working on your platform, but I don’t know if there’s any other you know, trends or data points that you were just like dying to share. Because I know people are probably like, ooh, what else can we learn from this? Because it’s easier when you explain the data than us going through a report. I hope you know that. But we do appreciate you sharing all the insights today with us.

Jocelyn Sheltraw 44:05
Yeah, no, we definitely know that we kicked off the thing called Data nights, I mean, obviously pre COVID, where we were going into all of the key markets. And we were presenting these reports live because just like the example that I was giving for using a retail platform, the data is only good if you can adjust it and you can understand it and make sense of it. So we always try to make it as simple to understand as possible and usable as possible. So we’ll kick those off. Again, we do a lot of webinars and stuff so can definitely circulate those with your group as well.

Shayda Torabi 44:36
And how can people find you online

Jocelyn Sheltraw 44:38
so they can find us on our website or you know, we’re pretty active on LinkedIn and Instagram. I post a lot about this stuff that I’m learning to meeting with producers throughout the supply chain. I’ll see you can either go to headset underscore IO for Instagram, or at jossi bossy on Instagram or follow us on LinkedIn and Yeah, we try to provide as many of these these resources as possible.

Shayda Torabi 45:06
Thank you so much, Jocelyn, for being on this show, I hope you guys really got a kick out of us diving into some of these data points. I do believe as a marketer, you need to understand the data. You don’t want to just make decisions blindly. I mean, I am all for throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks and just trying to be creative and putting content out there. But I do think when you’re trying to build a business, having an understanding of what’s working, what’s not working, whether it’s understanding the numbers in the data for your own business through internal solutions that can help you analyze that, or externally looking at what’s happening in the industry, both locally at a state level and also nationally. I just think it’s super important. So I hope this conversation was a good one for you. As always, please feel free to reach out to me on Instagram at To be blunt pod or at V Shayda. Torabi, if you want to get a hold of me personally directly, but yeah, I just really appreciate these conversations. Always I know that I benefit so much from obviously, getting to talk to these people, because I’m like you I’m a marketer, sitting here trying to learn and understand what’s happening in the space. So don’t hesitate to reach out because I am just like, y’all have same questions. I am trying to figure it out and navigate it and really just appreciate this community that we’re building. So let’s keep it up you guys. and we will talk soon new episode next week and see you guys later. I

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