Andrew Marlatt 0:00
i said before about there being different types of methodologies to create delta eight there’s some really bad ones specifically if you go and look at the patented process the srp that’s has a patent on it for deltaic production it uses a lot of really horrible chemicals but it also from my perspective doesn’t create a very good da it’s not stable so whether or not you’re just and i hate i don’t want to sound judgy in any way but if you’re super granola stay away from dell date i mean it’s just it’s just like that you know because it’s not air quotes here again natural but from my perspective it is completely natural because it isn’t not synthetic that’s unnatural
you’re listening to two b one b podcast for cannabis marketers were your host Shayda Torabi and her guests are trailblazing the path to marketing educating and professionalizing cannabis light one up and listen up here’s your host Shayda Torabi
Shayda Torabi 1:09
i feel like today’s episode needs to start with a drumroll so drumroll please we’re talking about delta eight yes delta eight is not a new cannabinoid by any means it’s been around for a while but in terms of its presence in the market it certainly has come on very fast and very furious which is why i figured it was time and appropriate to dedicate a conversation to understanding delta eight and so today’s guest andrew marla who is the gm of farm labs which is a multi state operating cannabis testing company which means basically they see a lot of cannabinoids and terpenes and different profiles and compounds and they’re testing it and they’re researching it and trying to make sense of it for both the industry as well as obviously you know qualified products for consumer consumption so like i said delta eight came on fast and furious it’s a product that if you can look at it from the you know 30,000 view it’s everywhere it’s literally everywhere but it has a lot of question marks around legality which is why i find it so fascinating and especially here in texas which is where andrew is based it’s definitely a popular product but i personally believe it’s gonna have a short lived shelf life which we kind of already knew with this cannabinoid but i think what i’m really eager to dive into this conversation with andrew on is really around not only what is delta eight but what are some of the other cannabinoids that are coming to market and really from a consumer perspective how do these cannabinoids fit with our bodies and with these desired outcomes that we’re turning to cannabis for so i don’t want to steal the thunder from andrew i do know a significant amount about delta eight just by being in the industry but again kind of some of the murmurs about delta h r delta eight is not delta eight meaning it’s very inconsistent in the market and so it’s not so you know raise some red flags in and give you some concern but you should have some red flags raised and there shouldn’t be concerned with any new cannabinoids delta eight or others so that’s why i’m really glad to have andrew here i’ve heard him speak on delta eight before so no he’s super knowledgeable and really just ready to you know learn i think that’s again the best place that we can come from in this industry is just realizing that this plant has so many facets to it and our bodies are so unique everybody’s body is going to respond differently to different cannabinoids different terpenes different consumption methods that it’s really our best interest as marketers to try to understand this as best we can and to share that information out so that’s what andrew is here to do today i’m really excited to dive into that discussion with him and so let’s just get right to it let’s welcome andrew to the show
Andrew Marlatt 4:13
my name is andrew marlin i’m the general manager at farm labs texas i’ve been in the industry depending on how you want to add it up from one aspect to the other about 12 years you know one of the first things that i went into was i invented thc and cbd detection kit with some partners i’ve decided to come back to texas where i’m from and help with the industry and see it evolve
Shayda Torabi 4:36
so let’s start kind of from the beginning what is farm labs
Andrew Marlatt 4:40
we focus specifically on everything that the farmer to the end formulator would need to know to inform their customers of the important information that everybody needs to know on their cv from potency heavy metals residual solvents the whole gambit i myself have been in the industry for a number of years and have a pretty broad background From every aspect from extraction, post processing, formulation and testing,
Shayda Torabi 5:05
thank you for the introduction. I want to highlight for the listeners the relevancy of this conversation in particular, what I was excited to talk to you about is obviously, where we both live, which is the great state of Texas, I think this industry before we started recording, we were kind of you know, touching on the subject, but I of course wanted to save the juice for the listeners. That is Texas is such a new market. And so on one hand you have cannabis is getting more and more acclaim kind of our national level, you are seeing more and more states go medicinal. They’re turning into recreation markets. And so the excitement is there. I think more consumers are familiar with cannabis than not certainly the picture of what a cannabis consumer is evolving. But then you have on the other hand, Texas and Texas is a beast all of its own, and we are proud of it. Except sometimes it makes being in cannabis a little bit more challenging. And what I mean by that is related to the game, you know, we are slow to getting into cannabis full on weed is not legal in our state. And yet hemp is federally legal and state legal. And it feels like the market is moving at such a rapid pace that sometimes it’s hard for brands and marketers really to keep track of like, okay, you mentioned ca so Certificate of analysis. Most people listening to the podcast should have some sort of understanding of what a CFA is the importance of it, etc. However, I think the integrity of CEOs, I’m curious what your opinion is, is sometimes varying. I mean, I’ve heard, you know, in consistencies when it comes to testing facilities, I’ve heard in consistencies of testing facilities both in the same state. I’ve heard of inconsistency of testing facilities out of state, there’s obviously different ways to test based on the type of cannabinoids so a big one that I would love to dive in with you is delta eight, because I feel like it’s the the big, you know, buzz of the industry right now is but knowing that, you know, the CIA and again to kind of put the lens on Texas, if you are a retailer in the state of Texas. And knowing that if you do really anything touching the plant, you need to be working with a testing facility. But if you’re a retailer and you want to sell products to an end consumer, you should get your products third party tested that is a part of our requirements by the state of Texas is to work with a testing facility like yourselves and make sure that our products are tested. But again, I find that the enforcement of testing is is not really there. I find that consistency of testing is not really there. And then now you get into these minor cannabinoids that are coming to market. And it’s just a whole crapshoot. So I’m curious what your thoughts are to unpack that.
Andrew Marlatt 8:06
Well, that’s a large package to unpack. So starting off with the CFA, and we’ll focus in on Texas specifically, everybody needs to be DS HS compliant or dishes however you want to call them that requires a Texas specific full panel. A lot of people think that they can send it off to Colorado or Wyoming or some you know, faraway place and get it tested in that full panel that they got in that state it covers Texas it does not there are specific rules for what is supposed to be tested for in Texas not just that the way that cannabinoids the total since we are in total THC state no matter how many people try to you know, argue against that. We are in total THC state we’re not allowed to modify the CBD. THC a number okay the acidic form of THC so in a lot of states you’ll get it tested there they subtract 13 to 16% due to decarboxylation to give you total THC we can’t do that here so you ended up getting it back to Texas you get your CFA says you’re compliant you’re below point three total THC, you put it on your shelves and then you’re selling a hot product to your clients and or to another business and it’s a regular issue to the question of you know, minor cannabinoids, we’ll focus in on delta A there isn’t a Delta eight Okay, there is there is a whole spectrum of delta A it’s like saying CBD distillate right CBD distillate can have just CBD in it can have a little THC can have a whole host of other minor cannabinoids and there’s varying degrees and quality. Okay, delta is much the same. From my bit of research that I’ve done. There’s about 13 to 15 different methodologies for the production of delta eight. It’s a it is a man made with cannabinoids for the most part in the sense that it is an isomerization of CBD isolate, okay. It is not naturally occurring in any significant numbers. In the plant except for plant material that’s been degraded. Okay? So that being said, it is of depending on who you ask completely legal or of dubious legality. I’m not going to really speak to that, because I’m not really a lawyer. But I will say that my interpretation of the Farm Bill, it’s pretty clear that it’s a hemp derived cannabinoid. So it is legal. And on testing delta a testing methodologies vary between labs to such a varying degree, and the slps that they follow that you really have to look at more than just you know, did I get a CFA what is the margin of error that that lab is allowed to use some labs are 10 to 15%. At farm labs, to remain ISO compliant, you need to believe be below 10%, you can’t claim more than 10%. Other than quantifying a number, we’re on average, let’s just take a THC, you know, most cannabinoids for the most part, we’re at a three to 5% margin of error. Okay, that’s very, very tight tolerances, delta eight, it’s usually about five to 6%. And that has to do with the irregularity within Delta eight, and its instability.
Shayda Torabi 11:09
So legality aside from Delta eight and knowing that we’re highlighting this cannabinoid in particular, because it is super buzzy, I know a lot of my listeners are in Texas, I know a lot of them are selling Delta eight, myself included. Also, I think, for those of you who are dealing with Delta eight, you should expect a shelf life meaning I don’t think Delta eight is going to be around forever, despite the again legality that it kind of sits, I appreciate your you know perspective of how Texas kind of views it and you can kind of interpret the law based on you know, what your interpretations are, I will also echo we are not lawyers, nothing that we are saying is is legal advice. This is more just you know, to industry professionals who are shooting the shit, you know about a topic that is really prevalent in our industry. And really, the intention is to help break it down for people to have jumping off points of further learning and discovery. Because I think that with cannabis in general, what I’ve observed and I, I do try to have a lot of conversations, as many conversations as my, my mind and brain will allow me to have, but it can be very overwhelming. So I can only imagine from a business perspective, like I guess I’ll kind of paint a picture for you. We’re here in Austin, Texas. And I consider myself again, someone who’s of the industry. And so I’m familiar with CBG, and CBN. And all these other minor cannabinoids that have kind of come up as CBD has become popularized. But we in Texas, we’re not counting depending on who you ask, because I kind of thought that we were only counting Delta nine THC, not total THC. But that aside, which we can get into in a little bit, you know, we don’t have delta nine. That’s kind of the big thing. I think most people are like, I like being high. I can’t be high legally in Texas, what are my alternatives? And so, you know, I don’t I don’t know if delta eight was something that I was aware of was even a product on the market that I could consume as a consumer, but let alone like a business like procure and put on my shelves. And so I’ll continue to kind of like paint the story, had a customer come into my shop, you know, early last year, and asked me for delta eight products. And I remember thinking, What the fuck is delta eight?
And where is this person being told about delta A, because again, when I’m looking at my partner’s nobody’s manufacturing, and it wasn’t a thing that you could have access to easily? And I’m asking this customer, you know, where did you hear about Delta eight, and he’s like, read it. And you know, it’s kind of a one off a one z, two z, then maybe a week and a half later, somebody else asked me about Delta. And I’m like, What are these people asking me about Delta eight? who’s like, where are they getting Delta eight from? What is this idea? Then you started seeing it pick up very rapidly. And then it turned into not just like, I heard it on Reddit, but like, Oh, my friend bought a card from this company online, or Oh, my friend is using Delta eight, or Oh, I heard this or that about Delta eight from this or that publication. And so you started seeing it go from kind of the underground to above ground. And I think at first in Texas, the observation was, Oh, these people just want to get high. They can’t have legal Delta nine. So they’re gonna Therefore go and get delta eight, which may or may not be true, again, depending on where you sit in the spectrum of things because I talk to a lot of farmers and they’re very purists and they’re like, it’s not you know, like you said, it’s not naturally occurring in the plant in high quantities. So therefore, if it’s kind of manmade or created, then it’s not you know, the integrity of the plant is not there. And so I resonated with that. I totally hear them I understand, but I’m, you know, two things One, I’m a business owner and a consumer myself. And so I’m always trying to think of what is the consumer asking for, you know, they’re the one who’s going to want to try this for x, y, or z reason. And so at that moment, when I saw that delta eight was becoming so desired, I was like, Well, I have to investigate this and get a better understanding myself. That led me then into, okay, well, now we’re sourcing Delta eight products, doing the best due diligence, I just had this conversation with a customer over Instagram the other day, she’s like, how do you know, you know, which I really want to pick your brain on that. But again, try to answer it to the best of my ability, it’s not consistent, and there are a bunch of different ways to derive it. And I try to do my best due diligence to ensure that the products that I’m putting on my shelves, meet these standards, etc, then now that I’ve been selling it, obviously, there’s a lot of buzz, especially with the National vape ban and delta eight is is predominantly in vape cartridges. There’s also the Texas smokeable ban, which are trying to navigate and so again, with vape, cartridges, that’s something so there’s these external things that are kind of attacking Delta eight, aside from Delta eight being attacked itself. And then I have the consumers who are providing me so much feedback, they’re saying, Oh, I actually consume a lot of delta nine. And I like Delta eight better, it makes me feel buzzed. Without the anxiety or paranoia, I find that delta nine makes me too stoned to buzz and delta eight is a much lighter, much more approachable high. I’ve even heard as far as people than going on extrapolating it out into, you know, now that we’re exploring these different Delta th C’s, delta eight is more of the to us, you know, marketing slang, the sativa have a high and then apparently Delta 10, which is another Delta coming on the market potentially is more of the indika of the high. And so now this picture for the consumer is really front and center for me as a marketer of in theory, I’ve envisioned a day where we all get DNA tested. And we know our genetics, and we know the map of all the cannabinoids and terpenes and we say, Hey, I have this disposition in my family lineage, or I have this ailment or I want to feel this way. What is the right blend for me and I know that we start seeing ratio products, mostly out of state because they are incorporating more of those, you know, delta nine cannabinoids, but I do see it in Texas as well. You know, I do CBN to CBD ratio products, delta eight to CBN ratio products. And so jumping off of that point, it’s like, I see consumers who’d like Delta eight. And it’s a very confusing situation for us to be in.
Andrew Marlatt 17:49
As far as like, the first question you asked there about the quality adult date that’s very easy to answer. And this is the thing I tell all my clients. The first and foremost thing you need to do beyond the CMA is ask for the chromatogram, which is the the readout from the equipment that did the analytical analysis. If the Delta peak on the readout is not a clean peak, meaning go straight up and straight down, or straight up, maybe a small plateau and straight down, it doesn’t have any other peaks kind of branching off of it before it hits the bottom line. Again, it’s not good deltaic stay away from it. It may not be stable, it might break down, it might lose potency, it might turn into delta nine, you know, UV damage, heat, all sorts of reasons why Delta eight can change, right? So the chromatogram is the with specially miners like Delta nine, delta H and delta 10 you really need to pull those as part of the CMA if you’re a business wanting to make sure that you’re providing the best product for your clients. to the next question of, you know, why do people consume delta A delta it’s a pretty interesting phenomenon. From a biological standpoint, it affects both the CB one CB two receptors, it has a completely different effect when eaten as opposed to when vaped I myself find that I don’t enjoy vaporization or smoking any delta of any kind. I it’s not that it’s unpleasant as much as it is. I don’t feel anything. Now when I eat Delta eight though. It has a very very very anti anxiety like effect. You know, from my you know, not a doctor speaking from personal experience, it 100% calms me down. Right now, there are low potency Delta eight smokeable products that I’ve tried that have other cannabinoids with them, and you know, you get the entourage effect, if you believe in that because of the terpenes and everything that those were really nice. But the second thing about Delta eight is I really don’t enjoy the flavor. Just for from a smoking perspective.
Shayda Torabi 19:46
It’s just such a fascinating cannabinoid because the argument I think on one end is it’s a THC. And so people who are looking for the Delta nine effect on i’m going to use air quotes for those of you who are not watching this which nobody should because i don’t put the video anywhere so air quotes it’s you know it’s a buzz but then you do get into the effects and how this particular cannabinoid does interact with both receptors the anecdotal observation that you made i have had very similar effects as someone who has consumed high delta nine thc it is a much more clear minded kind of buzz and high and so it’s one of those things that people are mad almost at the exploitation and i’m using that word very intentionally because i find that people feel like delta eight is an exploitation of this cannabinoid in the market but again i’m as just like a marketer i’m looking at my consumers and i’m like look you don’t have to use delta a like there’s other things you could use but you’re choosing why do you choose to use it and like they’re offering up these testimonials of why their feelings are so strong for this cannabinoid and it’s just putting us in a really interesting position i think as an industry but most in particularly as a state as we have you know again the the the attack on smoke bubbles is really really challenging for us because you know you kind of mentioned you don’t like to smoke delta eight i love to vape i love to smoke regrettably sometimes because it does have some bad you know effects just smoking in general but again not a doctor but you know from the things that i’ve researched and observed the bioavailability of smoking is much quicker than any other consumption method and so you have this consumption method that is really popular for getting the benefits of cannabis but then you have this attack on this type of consumption because i get it there’s so much discrepancy from i mean again just using texas as an example it’s pretty wild i know you know this but for listeners you know maybe this is what you’re seeing in your home state or your city but like you can buy a cannabis and gas stations you can buy cannabis and chiropractic offices you can buy cannabis in smoke shops and cbd shops and the reality is the integrity of the products might be really great and it also might not be really great and it doesn’t matter really who’s selling it so kind of on that vein i was just in florida for champs it was my first time going to champs for those of you who don’t know what champs is it’s a predominantly you know glassware smoke industry type show but very big in the cannabis industry and i didn’t know what to expect i honestly was going because as a brand i like to remain educated and informed which it did it totally educated and informed me but it also scared me because i think sometimes my mind goes through the thought process like oh this is a very real example i had heard i’ve seen people who are selling delta eight branded products but it’s like you know laffy taffy or nerds ropes or sour patch kids and you’re like that’s not a brand that would have cannabis associated to it legally and so you’re like who’s buying these products and so i showed to champs i’m like whoa this is not only who is buying this is who’s selling and it was crazy because it was a booth after booth after booth of delta eight and some people obviously looked credible and some people looked like just you know wild whacking out and i saw one company they literally were advertising delta eight nerds ropes and i’m hopefully sharing this as like a cautionary tale for anybody who is dealing with delta eight like you should absolutely do due diligence on the products that you’re putting in your store one and two putting in your own bodies and this guy had approached me he sees me looking at the sign and he’s like you want you like you want to sample you want to try it and he hands me a sample and it looks like a nerds rope and i’m playing a little you know dumb i’m like tell me more like how did you get nerds to like approve this and he’s like oh it’s easy you know we’re literally going to costco buying nerds ropes and then just dropping delta eight onto it and so i think that’s another thing that you know cannabis edibles in general there’s obviously a black market coming out of california and other places but i pinpoint california because that’s kind of the most notorious point of the black market but you’re seeing these products that are really well branded they look like name brand products and then it’s just people adding these cannabinoids onto it repackaging it and selling it and it’s just really scary and then one vendor we saw kind of did a wink and a nod I’d like, you know, it’s actually Delta nine, but it hit a little Delta eight sticker that he’s putting over it. And I’m just like in horror, like, Who are you selling this to? And I’m gonna be, you know, kind of a little out there and make generalizations, but a lot of smoke shops. And so you see where the dark side of the industry is corrupting the, you know, potential quality side of the industry. And so I say all that because I kind of want your industry perspective, especially sitting in a testing position, you must test a ton of delta eight. What is the what is the quality that you’re seeing? Like? Is it more like it’s actually all pretty decent quality? There are some bad players, or is it like majority is like so inconsistent? And not what is on the packaging?
Andrew Marlatt 25:49
The vast majority of our clients, labeled packaging claims are correct. There are people in r&d, who are not, but we’re not a typical testing facility. We’re not the you know, put ever whatever numbers you want to see on the CFA kind of lab. Okay, we’re above and beyond compliant, and above and beyond ethical, okay. So the kind of clientele that we have, that don’t really fall into the category of people that you’re discussing. Now, having been in the Big C, cannabis industry, as long as I have, you know, Colorado had this issue. For a very long time, people were buying name brand products, and then spraying them down with D nine, and selling it. And I’m gonna tell you right now, having seen what happened to the businesses that were involved in that, it wasn’t just the manufacturers who got in trouble and who lost everything. So I would definitely recommend don’t step on big corporations branding. It’s a bad idea. Beyond that, never ever, ever, ever, ever believe a CMA that you get from a vendor ever, under any circumstance, get everything retested, if you don’t get it, retested, it’s on you. You know, and if you’re selling to the public, and you’re selling something that, like you said, a wink and a nod is actually Delta nine, and they’re selling to delta eight, somebody is going to go to prison. And, and that’s and then you’re gonna get sued, because you sold it. And I would stay away from that, like 20 foot pole as far as the industry because, you know, perspective, that’s my perspective on that is test everything, trust no one,
Shayda Torabi 27:24
it’s a good philosophy, because I think there’s a lot of you know, bright eyed, bushy tailed people who want to get into cannabis, they have, you know, good hearts and souls, they, like myself, not that I’m not that person, I am that person. But I mean, more in the sense of like, sharing the same integrity of like, I really want consumers to have access to products that can help them. I, if delta eight helps you, I want to make sure that you have access to quality integrity, products that meet that, you know, level of expectation, but then the reality is, and I just observed it with Delta eight, it’s like, Is it because the markets moving so fast, I’ve even heard stories of like, I know that the testing is evolving in the sense that you can obviously determine Delta eight versus Delta nine, but where I get tripped up sometimes is how it’s created. So it’s my understanding if it’s created from hemp, or CBD, that it is legal. And it’s my understanding that if it is derived from Delta nine conversion that it is illegal, but there’s not really a standard way of deciphering how it’s derived. And so it’s very murky for brands, who are playing in this industry to like, understand, and so I, again, have a field day sometimes because I go to these shows, and I love playing dumb and asking people like, cool, you’re selling Delta eight, tell me more? How do you make it? You know, what’s your process? Like? What do you do with it? And the people who already kind of at first take can’t answer those questions. I’m like, I call bullshit on you. I’m not touching your products with a 20 foot pole. But you have kind of different filters of the conversation to ultimately try to get at like, Can I trust this manufacturer? Or can I trust this supplier, but it’s still to me, for some reason, delta eight just seems so challenging for people to put it, you know, some on and I was talking to someone the other day, and you kind of echoed the sentiment, delta eight is not Delta eight, meaning it’s inconsistent, and it’s difficult to replicate the credibility of it,
Andrew Marlatt 29:44
not always. Not always, that there are people out there that I know for a fact are making rock solid Delta eight that’s stable, and it’s very expensive. So that’s the thing that you have to understand the Delta eight market if you’re Delta eight isn’t 99.9% pure Delta eight question what it is to, there’s a lot of delta A delta, there’s like 97%, still good Delta eight. Okay, you just need to look at the chromatogram. If you’re seeing a bunch of weird minor cannabinoids on there or undefined peaks, stay away from it. Okay, you brought up the question of whether or not Delta from Delta nine can be determined you actually can. If you see, you know, certain other minor cannabinoids, you can also tell that it was converted from Delta nine because it’s part of that process. Okay, there are two separate processes going from CBD to delta eight, and from Delta nine to delta eight. Okay? So you can’t actually see that, from a cost perspective, most Delta nine that’s turned into delta eight is going to be 60% Delta eight, it’s going to be low potency, because they’re not making it from Big C cannabis. They’re making it from the byproduct of making CBD isolate. Okay, and there’s nothing wrong with that delta nine that’s leftover other than the fact that it’s illegal. You know, it’s it’s perfectly valid from a cannabinoid standpoint, but it should be destroyed under DEA guidelines, you know, that’s what’s supposed to happen to it. A lot of people are bypassing that and they’re making Delta eight out of it. Well, that’s a crime and it’s bad Delta eight, okay, because the cannabinoids by the time you’ve gotten to CBD isolate that are left behind in the mother liquor which is what that’s called right what’s left over after I slit their beat up they need to go in the garbage You know, they’re they’re the the processes are harsh enough making CBD isolate that you know, whatever’s left over just just recover your your solvent and then throw the rest away. There are really good Delta eights but you’re not going to pay less than like you know $2,000 per liter.
Shayda Torabi 31:49
Kuwait quick break to say thank you to restart CBD for sponsoring this podcast. Restart CBD is a brand my sisters and I founded in our hometown in Austin, Texas, we operate a retail location as well as an e commerce store and you can browse our wide range of CBD products at restart CBD calm. Again, thank you to restart for allowing me the time and resources to put on to be blunt. I hope you’ll check them out for your CBD needs. Let’s go back to the episode. What’s your observation on Delta eight in the marketplace Do you observe because especially from like a testing perspective, I mean, I think it’s really exciting as the market continues to evolve, we are getting access to more, you know, minor cannabinoids that really do have therapeutic benefits for you know, the end consumer. And so I’m curious kind of like, the two part question would be one, where do you see Delta eight sitting long term? Given that it is a natural part of the plant? Maybe not in the state that we’re consuming it as but you know, giving people access and exposure to that cannabinoid? To then what other cannabinoids Are you seeing emerging that are some stuff that you know, we should maybe be paying attention to.
Andrew Marlatt 33:10
So delta A is, in my opinion, perfectly legitimate if you consume so much that you’re intoxicated enough that people need to be worried your go to sleep, never met anybody that consumes enough Delta eight that they become a driving hazard, you’re not going to be able to drive, okay, low low levels of delta A depending on your individual cannabinoid system because we all have different tolerances, low levels. I can do advanced math, I can I can think clearly, this is not an intoxicant that is anywhere close to what Delta nine is. Do I think that it will be legal long term? I don’t know. I don’t know. I think that it has a very solid justifiable case for it being legal. I think under the strictest interpretation of the law, it is probably legal. I think that the DEA is very ready for it not to be and so we’ll kind of see I think that this discussion of delta eight and on to the further discussion of what you asked about other minor cannabinoids that are coming on the market Delta 10 in this case are going to push national legalization one way or the other. I think it’s it’s it’ll clarify everything when they you know remove the Farm Bill redefine the plant as a single plant because there is no hemp there is no big kidney to cannabis sativa l that’s all there is. Okay. And then we just define who has access based on age restrictions to you know what THC level, I don’t think anyone under the age of 21 should have access to delta A. I think that you know, much like alcohol and every other thing that it’s, you know, legal age consumed responsibly, no problem from my perspective. Now to the other cannabinoids that are coming on the market, delta 10 you He brought up something that I’ve heard other people say this, but from my own experience is very different Delta eight and delta 10 can’t be compared to indifference to TiVo in any way for my experience. Now, my endocannabinoid system might be different than other people. But I found Delta tend to be far more euphoric. And less the dative Delta eight is far more seductive. So it’s far more in that indepent class, if you want to call it that, when eating when smoked, they’re both very, very different. So I don’t think that delta eight or delta 10 are best utilized as cannabinoids on their own. I think that you know, delta eight specifically, it allows for other cannabinoids to be picked up by the CB one, cb two when they’re not normally, I think that you know, making, like you said, multiple multi cannabinoid products and terpene products that kind of exploit, you know, benefits of everything are going to be best, until someone figured out how to make Delta 10 without going linear from you know, CBD Delta eight Delta nine Delta 10. I would say that delta 10 is definitely illegal. My understanding now is because I haven’t done this, but the new process is to go from CBD to CBG and from CBG to delta 10. And so they bypass Delta nine production entirely. Okay, and even Delta eight. Okay, so is that delta 10? legal? I, from the law of perspective, I think it is. And do I think that it has uses as well 100% I really do. But all, all these, we’ll call them psychoactive cannabinoids, most of them are in the T block, you know, thcv Delta eight Delta 10. So on Delta nine, they should be consumed responsibly. And that’s, that’s really what it comes down to. But let’s not fool ourselves and think that these are not psychoactive ingredients. But caffeine is a psychoactive ingredient as well. And far too much caffeine can do, you know, just as much damage or more, you know, so that’s kind of the, in a nutshell.
Shayda Torabi 37:05
Yeah, I think delta A and 10 are really interesting just because of the lack of or ganic li occurring in the plant abundance that they present. And so obviously, there’s kind of that attack on it’s like a created substance versus it being like, Oh, we grew the plant, and then just produced this, like, I find I have to have the conversation with customers all the time, you know? Yes, there’s CBD, heavy flour. There’s THC Delta nine heavy flour, there’s even CBG heavy flour. But if someone is selling you Delta eight flour, that’s flour that’s not high in delta eight, it is an after effect that is sprayed and fuse, whatever you want to call it incorporated into it after the fact. And so it’s just interesting to even think of like how to get to delta 10. Because you would think that you wouldn’t have to necessarily always go through converting it from like, make sense linearly, like when you saw that I was like, oh, that kind of makes sense. You know, eight to nine, nine to 10, or nine to eight. But like bypassing it and going through other cannabinoids, it’s, it just shows the science side of these molecules, right. So
Andrew Marlatt 38:17
the easiest way to think about it is CBG is the mother of all cannabinoids, CBN and CBG. Depending on the cannabinoids are the base unit, that all the other hydrocarbon groups are added to to create the other cannabinoids. If you think of chemistry, like Legos, okay, because it really kind of is, whether it’s happening in the plant, or it’s happening outside of the plant doesn’t matter to me, what matters to me or what chemicals are being used to create the processes. There are rock solid quality Delta eights that exists that are using completely natural for the most part, food safe ingredients to create the final product. You know, there was a few months back where everybody was talking on, you know, Reddit and future 4200. And all these other sites. Oh, delta, it’s been bleached. That’s because there are you know, and my fingers are up in air quotes right now bleaching agents being used, but those bleaching agents are also use to make your water clear. And to you know, these are perfectly safe from a you know, and have years of usage and other applications where you get exposed to far higher quantities than you are in delta eight. So that doesn’t really bother me either. I said before about there being different types of methodologies to create Delta eight. There’s some really bad ones. Specifically, if you go and look at the patented process, the SRP that’s has a patent on it for deltaic production. It uses a lot of really horrible chemicals. But it also from my perspective, doesn’t create a very good da it’s not stable. So whether or not you’re just and I hate, I don’t want to sound judgy in any way, but if you’re super granola, stay away from Dell date. I mean, it’s just it’s just like that, you know, because it’s not air quotes here again natural, but from my perspective, it is completely natural because it isn’t nothing synthetic, that’s unnatural. It’s a reordering of the Legos to create with the Legos being cannabinoids to create a another cannabinoid. Now does it occur in the plant very much? No, No it doesn’t. But the vast majority of the CBN you’re buying isn’t plant extracted. It’s a conversion from CBD CBG which is coming up on the market right now. Again, that comes from CBD and it’s converted, you’re not gonna see very often because you do know sources to get it but CBD distillate that just comes from the plant, and it’s going to be pretty low and CBG. Um, so you know, now you asked before about minor cannabinoids that I see that are going to be maybe, let’s say a big deal. THC P and C VDP are going to be a big deal. Now. th CP I’m not 100% sure anyone has figured out how to create that from CBD yet, but I seriously doubt that it’ll ever be legal. If what I’ve read is true, because I haven’t actually tried to teach dp it’s 40 times more psychoactive than delta nine in a very similar vein. So you know, let’s go one you know a five milligram gummy is now 40 times stronger. Because it’s THC p i don’t think that’ll ever be legal. I don’t think that they’ll ever let that happen. If that’s the case, that now there’s there’s really amazing things with CBD p that people are coming out and studies with now saying that it’s exponentially more effective for neurological issues than traditional CBD is. So I’m convinced Big Pharma is going to snatch up, you know that and it’s going to there’s going to be a patented CBD product that helps with, you know, neurological issues. If it is as effective as they’re saying. Earlier, you didn’t also mention that it’s a shame that no one has a genetic test. The interesting thing is is as of last year, there is a Canadian company that does that.
Shayda Torabi 42:02
Yeah, I’ve heard of it like being thought about but I haven’t seen it actually, like brought to the consumer market. So is this one actually a consumer can?
Andrew Marlatt 42:10
I believe it has to be under a doctor’s order. And I believe it’s only available to Canadian citizens currently, because of you know, international legalities of you know, are we telling you what cannabinoids are going to work best for you and Is that legal? So what I would say is that if, if what I heard is correct in 2024, they will have a male in service, potentially. So if that happens, we can all actually get our Endocannabinoid profile polled, and find out hey, this might cause a psychotic episode because you have an overactive endocannabinoid system. And everyone who’s ever had one of those super bad experiences. Your endocannabinoid system is overactive consume far less. I’m fairly certain that I have a greatly underactive endocannabinoid system because I can consume vast quantities and barely feel it.
Shayda Torabi 43:01
It is exciting to figure out my philosophy is always trying to get the end consumer to have the best experience with cannabis as possible. Knowing that just because I like high Delta nine, that doesn’t mean that everybody wants high Delta nine and it is to get them comfortable enough to explore these different cannabinoids. But because there’s just so much like, I’ll throw another one at you that I’m really curious what your thoughts are CBN I’ve heard again, it’s funny because you know, the source of truth, I think for a lot of these things, while they should be rooted in science and actual research, so much of this industry is very anecdotal. And so it’s, I smoked this or I ate this and I felt this way. So therefore it must be X, Y, or Z. Mostly, this is the T bar. This is indika. So CBN is one that I’ve seen and I’ve even communicated is more of a seductive, because that’s what anecdotally we’ve experienced. That’s what is kind of being educated. You guys can’t see Andrew right? He is smiling wildly because he’s about to change my world up. But I was just reading an article the other day that was saying, you know, basically that it was most people think CBN is the dative. But it’s actually not really the dative but because of how it’s derived coming from THC. That’s where I guess the narrative is when you leave, let’s say pot for too long and you know, in a bag and then you find it, it’s not really you know, it’s the THC that’s degra gated, and that’s kind of what turns into CBN which is why CBN might be seductive. But actually CBN as a cannabinoid is not super seductive. So it’s just one of those things again, you see marketing Oh, this is probably you you need to help sleep and you know, full spectrum didn’t work for you. Why don’t you try CBN products and now I’m like, wait, what are these cannabinoids? Okay, so
Andrew Marlatt 44:57
I like I said before, I have a huge background and for me So actually making products and then selling those to companies who want to produce them and sell them. Okay, so CBN is in low quantities with high quantities of CBD. And the addition of certain terpenes or other pathogens, meaning plants based medicine is actually extremely seductive, it can be very beneficial and sleep. It’s very calming. However, CBN and large quantities because I’ve seen some of these CBN tinctures now being like 3000 milligrams, you’re not going to sleep after that. It’s what I would say that, from my experience, what I can equate it to is, if you’ve ever taken too much NyQuil, and you absolutely cannot sleep,
Shayda Torabi 45:41
I message you you’re like in a weird trip zone.
Andrew Marlatt 45:43
Yeah, it’s, it’s very much like that. So a small amount, absolutely very helpful with sleep, but not on its own. And definitely not in large quantities. So more is not more, in this case, more is the exact opposite of what you want. And from my experience, not really a good time. So CBN is definitely something I think, again, it has uses, people need to understand what they’re consuming, and understand their tolerances. So, you know, I always tell everybody start low and slow. I know that’s kind of everybody’s go to, but that even that’s even for that’s pretty much everything with CBD, because you know, I’ve consumed 3000 milligrams at one time a CBD and I didn’t feel anything, I felt other than about an hour later, I felt I had no pain, you know, no inflammation. And that was uh, other than that I felt no intoxication now, being my favorite guinea pig slash lab rat is myself. thcv is another interesting one, if you want to talk about that. I’ve heard about that a lot coming up. th TV will absolutely turn your appetite off and lock in small doses. It will give you energy. It will also in conjunction with other cannabinoids and terpenes trigger, the you know, old school super sativa freak out, you know, the, you know, the cops are after me, you know, hide under the bed kind of freak out. Yeah, super paranoid. And so again, used in moderation. Or if you’re someone like myself, who happens to find supercity was to be my favorite. You know, if we want to use that term, because I’d love to talk about Steven Steven indika. Because those don’t mean what you think they mean?
Shayda Torabi 47:31
Oh, let’s crack it open. Okay.
Andrew Marlatt 47:33
Okay. So I can name several strains that everyone say are citybus. Okay, pretty much all of the New York cheese. You know, all of those. They’re the exact opposite of what people think they are. In the conservative Ireland in terms linnaean Linnaeus was a gentleman who gave us all of our botanical names for things, okay. If everybody remember studying about peas, and genetics in school, that was Linnaeus. So if we look at the linnaean descriptions of indicates ativa you have whether or not it’s essentially tall and skinny with narrow leaves or broad leaves, or short and fat with narrow leaves or broad leaves. And then we have you know, ruderalis, which is, you know, because that’s the third known type of you know, cannabis sativa l that people have identified and ruderalis is, specifically it’s from the Latin for rebel. It is a stream that most people refer to now as autoflower. It grows short and squat and will flower anywhere and doesn’t care about tilled soil. it you know, it comes out of the Russian steps. It’s very hearty from cold, all that good stuff. Now, in the conceiva, land races are another terms that people like to throw around, and the land races really don’t exist except for in isolated bubbles, like, you know, the Indus Valley region or the Hindu Kush mountains where the pollen from other cannabis plants can’t reach those areas. You can have a landrace stream in Denver, Colorado, you do not have landrace strains, you have hybrids. They’re all hybrids. There is no such thing as a Landry strain. And most of the landrace strains due to human interaction, especially global travel, have been contaminated. lambs breath out of Jamaica, good example. You can’t get real lambs breath that existed 4550 years ago. It doesn’t exist anymore. And everybody says, Oh, I got this cut, and it’s the best and done. And I’m like, nope, no, no, no, no, unless you have somebody who is a obsessively dedicated grower, which I know a few in Colorado who have been growing. I know a gentleman in Colorado who grows nothing but Durbin poison. And he’s been growing. He calls it Durbin poison for really what it is. If you follow the time back it’s Durban it’s a pure Durban. It’s a pure Sub Saharan African strain that he’s been growing that one strain forever you don’t go into his grow unless you change into a tyvek suit and leave all your clothes behind you don’t you don’t wear your shoes in there he has you know you step in bleach baths you know he’s killing all the pollen before you go into that space because if he ever gets contaminated his mother gets crossed you know it’s done right that is the most stimulating strain i’ve ever smoked in my life one of the most amazingly unique experiences outside of friesian duck freezing duck was another one of those that it’s it’s a plant that doesn’t have a pomade leaf it doesn’t have the five points to the leaf it has usually three and they usually are a little curly it doesn’t even look like a cannabis plant until it starts to but that was again that is a unique thing it is the unicorn that exists right but for the most part my interpretations of strains is outside of you know how do i feel when i smell it how does it you know how does it make me feel when i look at it they’re all the same things for the most part it’s cannabis to tivo and there are unique outliers pink sands great great string phenomenal do i think it’s an indycar siva no it’s a hybrid they’re all hybrids so they might have subtle differences but genetically the studies that were done in like 2016 and 2018 on what it actually makes an indycar what makes us a diva genetically not most but i would i think this study said 10 to 30% of all strains are mislabeled genetically not even by the name we’re saying just indycar city but they’re completely mislabeled because people go by the appearance or they’re going by the effect and neither one of those hold true in every case
Shayda Torabi 51:47
well it’s very inconsistent
Andrew Marlatt 51:49
yes because they’re all hybrids
Shayda Torabi 51:51
right it’s a genetic soup
Andrew Marlatt 51:52
right that it hasn’t had 200 300,000 years of isolation to becoming right isolation is key it’s
Shayda Torabi 51:59
like the purity of it and i think most people don’t realize that spectrum which is so fascinating thank you for that by the way that history lesson was very very important and i think for marketers it’s again kind of the thought process i was just about to share is like when i was just a cannabis consumer oh i you know you hear of certain strains pineapple express blue dream you think oh when i smoke that and it says it’s this way i felt that way okay sure i could kind of start to see it but then you kind of get into the industry side and like all the thoughts that i ever thought i knew about cannabis were just completely eradicated because one the genetics to where you’re growing it who the cold tovar is indoor versus outdoor contamination or not water geography like the list goes on and on that you know i hate to be that marketer in the room who’s like it’s marketing but it’s marketing and it’s taken off pretty pretty well unfortunately it’s a i have people who will ask me sometimes you know what’s your favorite strain and i’m like i don’t i don’t even know if i can accurately answer that because the inconsistency is i’ve you know using let’s say pineapple express pineapple express from you know maybe my favorite shop in denver is going to be a different experience than my favorite shop in colorado springs or if that strain shows up in california and so these names have become synonymous with these effects these experiences this you know proliferation it’s like oh you know everybody loves bubba kush bubba kush this bubba kush that but then it’s like i don’t know if i’ve ever had a consistent experience smoking baba
Andrew Marlatt 53:40
being in the cannabis industry as long as i have i actually know the gentleman who came up with you know 97 bubba kush yeah and had this conversation with him and he said there is no real bubba kush unless i taught you to grow it and you’re buying the nutrients for me and i set your grow up okay because if you don’t have that level of control where nutrients water temperature elevation literally everything he says it’s not bubba kush
Shayda Torabi 54:07
i believe it but that’s where then you see this like confrontation of the industry again i think the consumers what i find is so exciting but also the very real challenge of our industry is consumers are pushing the market forward while we’re still navigating the industry sometimes i equate it to like you know that you’re driving the ship and you’re also plugging up the holes it’s like wait i didn’t even know that was like a thing until you see it kind of out in the market and i know other industries deal with this but obviously given cannabis is notoriety and just position being a drug scheduled drug it’s like how do you start to attack is not the right word but how do you start to attribute all the variabilities so i did an episode with the svp of marketing at leafly which plug for you guys go listen to that past episode but leafly to me has just been a brand obviously for most people for their exploration hey you know i want to understand more about let’s say bubba kush or or durbin sour what is this guide say essentially to me and she was sharing some of the evolution of that especially with the broadening of the industry now you have all these variations and they’re trying to categorize and document all of them because because it isn’t consistent it’s not you know unless it’s like you said the same cultivars under the same settings under the same circumstances it just creates so much variability but she was also cluing in the exciting part is especially getting into these minor cannabinoids i think it gives growers opportunities to make more unique products or more unique grows it’s a cool position to be in but it’s also again literally rewriting a lot of the i don’t want to say rules or playbook for the industry but again i think when you’re a marketer and you’re like how do i talk about these things there’s like stuff that you just believe because over time it’s like kind of like the folklore and the culture of cannabis but now that it’s coming out into the light you are seeing oh well actually we do have better research now and we do have better understanding and now it’s just so much broader than we thought so i just think it’s good food for thought for marketers who are dabbling in the industry that you know kind of question everything get everything double triple tested and you know just stay curious because there’s so much to uncover still
Andrew Marlatt 56:44
totally agree it’s everybody forgets about the venn diagram of cultivation right so it’s it’s the terroir as the overall location and how it was developed and you know then it’s that the individual genetics of the plant right and then it’s the interaction of the grower right how well they took care of it what their approaches are and how they do it i think that’s far more important the growers interaction and the terroir over genetics and especially if the genetics come into play once they’ve established themselves that you know four or five 610 generations in that situation and setting right and southern california they’ve really started to focus on that on you know cannabis the terroir and i actually know him companies now that are starting to really push that right like so smokable hemp products that they’re like no this was grown in maine it was grown around to these conditions it’s like you know so many generations old one of my favorite hemp strains comes from specifically maine i’ve given the seeds of given the genetics to other people and they can’t grow what they grow up there right so it’s finding what works in your environment and finding what works under the conditions you want to grow it but you know personal opinion is outdoor and soil is king always i know everybody thinks that indoors better i think indoor has a better preserved her profile but from a overall effect standpoint i think that nature has it best in always well
Shayda Torabi 58:16
wow wow wow we got into it
Unknown Speaker 58:19
Shayda Torabi 58:19
that was a good conversation thank you andrew for imparting us with all your cannabis cannabinoid wisdom you know i just think there’s just so much to learn about this plant as i often share on this show and the science behind the cannabinoids especially as new minor cannabinoids hit the market how do you make sense of it as a marketer you know what are consumers asking for there’s just so many layers to dissect and i always try to stand in a position of gaining perspective so i hope that you learn something new whether you’re you know in texas or not whether you sell or want to sell delta eight or delta 10 or cbn or cbg etc or not again there’s always something to learn and so that is the philosophy of this show is just to stay curious and to you know learn and share that learnings with others so with that said this episode is dunzo for the day i do have a ton of other great episodes if this is your first time listening thank you so much if you’ve made it all the way to the end credits then you get a gold star dm me on instagram and i’ll reward you with something that i will come up with but i encourage you to go check out other episodes my guests come from all aspects of the industry they’re all you know intelligent and brilliant and strategic and their own regards and have added so much value to this industry that i’m just really grateful that we are able to capture their stories for the podcast so yeah we we’re done this is all i’ve got to share today but i will say if you found value with this app So the best thing that you could do that will really help me and will really help this industry is to share what you learn. You don’t even have to share this episode. I mean, if you share this episode, I would really appreciate it because I do find that super valuable for helping spread the word and spread the knowledge. But if you found a new piece of information or you thought of a new idea, just sharing the knowledge spreading that around, that is how this industry is going to continue to grow, how it’s going to continue to evolve. And is really you know, what truly warms my heart at the end of all of this. So, thanks again. This is Shayda Torabi, I’m signing out and I will see you guys next Monday for another brand new episode of The to be bought podcast. Stay safe out there y’all buy. Love
this episode of To be blunt. Be sure to visit the Shayda torabi.com slash to be loved for more ways to connect new episodes come out on Mondays. And for more behind the scenes follow along on Instagram at V Shayda Torabi
Transcribed by https://otter.ai